观点与事实——出十个有关日本围棋史的问题考考诸位的思辨能力和知识

秋止符.

国人喜欢把人当神看，这不符合常理，人性是有多面性的，吴说没说过不重要，但是棋力不等于棋品，棋品不等于人品，那种品性上的圣人是不存在的

多九公

關於第6個問題，前田陳爾的原文是：“特に鈴木と瀬越は秀哉名人にとって苦手の存在だったし。”

出自前田的文章《我的本因坊戰》，刊於1972年11月出版的《本因坊戰全集》（別卷）附頁。文章不長，試譯如下。

前田陳爾：我的本因坊戰

在一片好評聲中，《本因坊戰全集》迎來最終一集的出版。首先，應該表示慶賀。因爲據我所知，這種大型出版物很少能成功。

不過，如果讓我說點私事的話，本因坊戰對我來說未必是一個好的棋戰。因為在三十年的棋戰歷史中，我的名字只出現在循環圈賽的兩個賽季，即便從實力上看是理所當然的事，但作為棋士，我始終無法掩飾心中的羞愧。

另一個痛苦的回憶要追溯到本因坊戰之前的經歷——名人秀哉的引退棋。這盤棋後，名人將退出現役。決定在引退棋中出場選手的最終循環圈，由鈴木、瀨越、加藤、木谷各七段，和從六段陣中打上來的久保松、前田共六人進行。那是昭和十二年的事。雖說是引退棋，但這盤棋的重大意義在於是否會給號稱不敗的秀哉名人蒙塵。特別是鈴木和瀨越，對秀哉名人來說是苦手一樣的存在，至於木谷，則是以下一代為目標的新銳逸才。對於這樣的事態，不知秀哉名人是如何想的，但不管怎樣，作為唯一從坊門出場的我，背負着必須獲得優勝從而成為老師盾牌的使命。如果我和秀哉名人對局，因為是師徒關係，無論誰贏，秀哉名人都不會受傷。

然而，事與願違，木谷七段以五戰全勝的成績與秀哉對陣。在引退棋中，木谷七段以五目獲勝。

現在回想起來，當時秀哉名人的健康狀況，應該已經達到應付重大比賽的極限了，但這樣說也沒有多大意義。再說一遍，即使（我的）實力相當，沒能成為老師的前衛，給我留下一生的心結。

告别的年代

对了，还有铃木和濑越，其实随着日本棋院成立秀哉搞出新的大手合制。铃木和濑越以前对秀哉成绩再好，也再无与秀哉争的可能。濑越两子被秀哉逼和应该也是被搞坏了心情。不过，濑越这个人让人佩服，人家是眼光长远做大事，这些小事只有秀哉这种人看得比什么都重。

告别的年代

当年在论坛和吃龙激烈辩论过无数回，心理上确实见到这个人产生恶心的感觉了。居然在知乎上成为了棋史专家，虽然是自封的，但迷惑性不容小觑。当年在论坛虽然还没到人人喊打的程度，但基本上众多坛友也是把这个人和松江河当做一个笑话看（和松江河一个团队或就是一个人这个没问题，以发文中间的大红字为标志性，其自己也亲口说过分身众多，分身还要分各种不同性格人设。很是变态。）
        下面说说自己的感想，毕竟这么多年了，很多东西都忘记了，材料也找不到了。
         秀哉是坏人，我印象里怎么还看过视频？如果有误那就是记错了。不过文字资料确实没见过荷兰记者此文，多九公还是材料掌握多啊！
          秀哉是坏人吗？当然是。从万年劫到除门案再到与雁金和吴对局随意打挂集体研究致胜等等，是个坏人确实不用多说。濑越被逼辞职可见坊门到了那个时间还是势力巨大，而且这个事与吴清源实际被日本棋院除名有直接关系，这个事对吴清源影响非常大。
            至于前田陈尔，秀哉其他弟子也曾经在自己书里明确写到过是前田陈尔想出那个妙手，也有说是大家七嘴八舌讨论出来的。不过吴清源好像也并不在意，是不是坏人的点也不在这里。
             吃龙说集体讨论对吴清源有利，这个纯属胡扯不值一驳，不过可见吃龙其人的风格就是以诡辩见长。至于濑越一门吴的朋友也和吴集体讨论什么的，这个更无聊。
              很多棋友呼应吴清源先生什么劳军甚至什么汉奸，很悲哀的是有些人是受吃龙万吨这种人影响。这吃龙把这意见的文章贴得到处都是，中国网络环境也是乱七八糟。这个不说了，要说起来比较长了，没什么必要。吃龙这个人的目的实际上就是为了通过黑吴，黑中国古棋，黑掉中国人的骄傲，这个可以细品。
             对了，商业表演。嘿嘿，有这样的商业表演？库之助揣着辞职信去下棋？众多棋手喊打倒吴清源？不聊这个了，太无聊。
              总之，吃龙此人，擅长的就是诡辩，偷梁换柱搞一些东西来混淆是非。而且马甲众多，战斗力迷惑力极强。这个人真正是个坏人与烂人。

肥仔胡

忘了一点，遗漏看了，秀哉对吴的那个星三三天元对局，耗时超过了吴。秀哉耗时22小时16分，吴耗时22小时6分。由于名人有打卦的特权，而且封棋最后一手必须由黑棋下，白有更多时间进行局外研究。如果秀哉还在意明面上的耗时问题，在旁观者看来不是显得特别虚伪吗？给人一种装腔作势的感觉，他至于这么弱智吗？拜托不要编故事。问时间有意义吗？没有一点意义。因为这个棋整整下了14天，这个14天不是连续的，是每周一下的。所以下了14周，跨度为两年。吴先生说秀哉名人有一次长考了3小时37分，下不了决心，还是打卦。所以说秀哉要盘面和时间双赢，简直是放屁。

llhawk

吴大师不是某一个人或者几个人就可以黑得了的，不必在意这些无聊的言语

肥仔胡

九公不必和吃龙万吨一般见识，有文化的人和文盲有什么可争的。我的情况有点两样，是一帮文盲流氓骂上门来，说我勾结日本文部省，收取津贴，美化南京大屠杀，贬低抗美援朝，蟑螂，汉奸，猩猩之类的乱骂，我才不得不反击。本来如果两条平行线，各走各路，读过书的，和文盲流氓有啥可计较的，您说是吗？好人坏人怎么说呢？我只知道人要善良，有同情心有同理心，这个世界上有没有圣人，或许吧？我妈在我小时候告诉我，“圣人没有肚脐眼”，大家找找看吧，没准在滚滚红尘里就能找到，没准在海边或者公共浴池里就发现一个，不要犹豫，倒头便拜。

肥仔胡

7，铃木对秀哉的连胜，怎么没有收进《秀哉全集》，拜托不要睁眼说瞎话好吗？8，秀哉在被铃木连胜后避战，是一种推测，当然可以认为是有道理的，因为和一个五段从先二变成定先，多少有点让名人没面子，但作者要说明这是自己的推测。但不要以秀哉代言人自居，说难听点，你又不是秀哉肚子里的蛔虫。9，秀哉问责秀荣，希望拿出原始证据。一般情况下，这种做法在日本很难想像。10，吴清源的比赛是商业表演赛，这是一种个人观点，在前面加上“我认为”比较好。另外商业表演差哪了，有了商业才有社会进步，老是农耕文化，你现在还在坐马车呢。

肥仔胡

从3－10我个人认为都不靠谱。只有1－2我看到谢锐的文章，以及吴老的访谈里有。具体出处已经记不清了。3，吴说，“秀哉把本因坊名号卖给了读卖新闻社，并用这个钱买了房子”。4，吴在自传里说，本因坊一门黑压压一帮，在研究他和秀哉的对局，让他感到心惊，这是他自传里说的。5，濑越一门集体研究，吴从没说过，但研究拆棋也很正常，又不是一天下完。6，前田陈尔从没说过这种话，如果说过请说明出处。本因坊门很重规矩的，前田这种话，在日本传统里不可想象。比如依田说“秀行先生下不过聂卫平”，大家觉得有这个可能吗？除非他不想混了。

N6973

吃龙万吨，精力全用在黑吴清源了，主业就是干这个吧

jianglei

老吴在棋盘上是天才，是圣人，但棋盘外，就是普通人，棋盘外的观点不重要，对错都不用上纲上线，否则侵华劳军、入籍和宗教等，完全扯不清了，所以，他无愧为昭和棋圣，秀哉，无愧为本因坊名人！

当然，如果是治史，那的确需要研究和严谨了！

512song

我最早看到的还不是谢锐的文章，是一篇访谈中的，但没有荷兰文中下面关于本因坊的继续

czh300

谢锐当年在体坛周报这篇报道印象很深，20年后再看还是那么感慨，谢谢flyingsee。

多九公

512song 发表于 2022-6-6 08:30
第一句是我当初看到时，感觉最为突兀的一句话，当时几乎怀疑是假的，或者翻译有误。因为完全颠覆了之前的阅 ...

这句话最早是1999年旅日荷兰人Pieter Mioch采访吴清源的记录中出现的，登在荷兰围棋杂志上，后来由英国围棋史家John Fairbairn译为英文，分三部分发在网上，现在还能看到。
当时（应该在1999年到2000年之间）我在“中国围棋网”或无酒的“棋人网”介绍过，也转贴过英文译文。同样，看了吴清源对秀哉的评论，我也感到相当震撼，还特地写信给Pieter Mioch询问吴清源所用的日语原文。谢记者当时也常来网站，之后就出现了中文报导。可惜我的旧电脑损坏，硬盘虽然取出，但是个“大脚盘”，和后来的硬盘格式不同，就没有把其中的文档转出来。





关于秀哉的评论出现在第二部分。https://gobase.org/studying/articles/mioch/goseigen/interview-2.html

The Pieter Mioch interviews Go Seigen (part 2)Honinbo Shusai

Go Seigen and Pieter Mioch

Another famous episode in the career of Go Seigen is his game against Honinbo Shusai. In order to make plain what was so special about this game, first a little bit of go history.

The start of professional go in Japan was approximately contemporaneous with the battle of Nieuwpoort, around 1600, and it began with the Buddhist monk Nikkai. Nikkai was the first head of the Honinbo go school. In 1612, the authorities began officially to sponsor the four greatest go schools: Honinbo, Yasui, Inoue and Hayashi. The Honinbo school had the leading position, thanks to the overwhelming strength of Nikkai. In 1588 he was able to win a tournament organised by the government. It brought him a fixed annual income, paid by the Shogun.

The name Honinbo, incidentally, comes from a pavilion on the land of a temple in Kyoto where Nikkai lived. When the capital was moved to Tokyo in 1603, Nikkai had to go along. Once arrived there, he made a title of the name Honinbo and changed his name to Honinbo Sansa. He is best known by this name. In Tokyo he received an established post and he was, amongst other things, responsible for the spread of go in Japan. He took this very seriously. It is Honinbo Sansa and his school that Japan must thank a great deal for the level at which go is played at present.

The supremacy of the Honinbo school was off and on in danger, but even when the authorities stopped sponsoring go in 1868, the Honinbo school still supplied the strongest go players. This was in spite of the problems and reverses, the lack of income and accommodation. It seems that later there was talk of a certain sclerosis of playing techniques precisely because the Honinbo school always stood at the top. Dogmas arose: specific opening moves, for instance, were marked down as good or bad. Moves rejected by the Honinbo school normally never appeared on the board in professional games.

When Go arrived in Japan, the Honinbo school was still the leader of the go world. The prestige of the head of the school, Honinbo Shusai, was enormous - the more so because Shusai had acquired, in addition to the title of Honinbo, the highest possible of Meijin (master). Through his position, Shusai represented centuries of go wisdom and tradition. Go Seigen was unintentionally to be cast in the role of braggart and rebel - a role which by no means suits this especially friendly and mild-mannered man, and which he himself had never knowingly sought.

The game between Go Seigen and Honinbo Shusai, which at the time was regarded by everyone (and by some still is) as the game of the century, began on 16 October 1933 and lasted almost three months. The actual playing time, the time that both participants actually sat at the board, was 14 days. the newspapers had considered that it would be good for circulation to publicise this game widely as a confrontation between Japan and China. As a result, Go was often troubled by nationalists and the windows of his house were smashed in.

"I have never taken much part in politics or the like. This was not the first time that I was an accessory to events in which emotions ran very high."

Go had to put up with this inimical atmosphere for three months. As nominally the stronger player, Shusai had the privilege of deciding whenever the game should be adjourned.

Because, at the time, there was no sealing of moves, it meant that the player whose turn it was to move could continue to study the position leisurely at home. Shusai made shameless use of this privilege. Thus it came about that, at the resumption of play on the eighth day, Shusai played first, Go answered within two minutes, and Shusai then thought for three and a half hours, only to adjourn the game. Go was thus at a particular disadvantage.

It is therefore not surprising that, whenever the ideal duration of a game comes up for discussion, Go has a very forthright opinion. A game must, one way or another, be completed in one day.

"Cho Chikun lost yesterday because he had selected a large-scale, difficult joseki,"

said Go, by way of explanation.

"That is precisely what is wrong with go in Japan today. They are too attached to corner patterns (josekis). Go ought to be played on the whole board. And why Cho is using all is time on one joseki in a game with three hours thinking time is a mystery to me."

Go's unorthodox style attracted much attention. He was the darling of the newspapers, which recorded top sales during the match between Go and Shusai. His opening move at 3-3 was unheard of for a professional.

Go: "Everyone said a move on the 3-3 point was bad and could not be played. I simply did not understand that, and wanted to see for myself why it was supposed to be bad."

In the end, Shusai won the game by two points. But there is yet another remarkable story attached to the game. It is on account of White's move in Diagram 1, a brilliant move that made a significant contribution to Shusai's victory. It was an open secret that Go in fact had to take on the whole Honinbo clique at the same time. Whenever Shusai had adjourned the game, he studied the position with his students to find the best move together.

The story is that White's move in Diagram 1 was a brilliant discovery by one of Shusai's pupils: none other than Maeda Nobuaki, who became famous for his books on tsume-go (go problems). This move, which at a stroke brings White back into the game, was therefore apparently not thought of by Shusai himself.

Go's teacher, Segoe Kensaku, let drop years later, according to what he assumed was an "off-the-record" conversation in a bar, that White 1 was a move by Maeda and not by Shusai. When this pronouncement appeared in a newspaper the next day, the whole Honinbo school was furious, and Segoe had to bear a very heavy burden. Every day he received threatening letters, and a band of supporters of the Honinbo school bent on revenge even posted themselves in front of his house. Eventually he had to give up his post on the board of the Ki-in and make a public apology.

"I am very sorry that there were some things I did not realise until later," said Go. " Honinbo Shusai and my teacher were definitely not bosom pals, but that went totally over my head."In an interview in the 1980s, he said,"Only years later did I come to know that Segoe had made that statement, and that he therefore had to endure so much."

The game to one side, Go had the following to say on Shusai in the interview:

"Was Honinbo Shusai a villain? He was a scoundrel! How the Ki-in manages to deify this person of all people is unbelievable!"

He goes quiet for a moment, then suddenly he declares in a surprisingly loud voice and with much agitation:

"A villain. He was a villain! He is now praised to the skies by the Ki-in and depicted as one of the heroes of this century, yet - mark you well - he sold his title to the newspapers for mere lucre and bought with it a fair-sized piece of land in Tokyo without giving one cent to the Ki-in or the go world."

And so he goes on...

flyingsee

吴清源：秀哉是坏人。——这是观点。

《体坛周报》曾于2002年发表记者谢锐的报道，报道中提及，吴清源说“秀哉是坏人”。——这是事实。

吃龙万吨：吴清源说“秀哉是坏人”，这话不对。——前半句是事实，后半句是观点。